Proposed Law Says Suspects With Imitation Weapons Can't Be Shot By Police

A new law proposed in California would change the standards for when force could be used.

Sacramento, CA - Following the recent justified shooting of Stephon Clark, California lawmakers are moving to make it easy to prosecute officers who shoot suspects.

I previously covered why the Stephon Clark shooting is justified, and why officials who say otherwise are lying about it.

Lawmakers in California are well-aware that the shooting was legally justified, and the only way to change that fact is to change the law itself, so that's what they are doing.

Currently, federal use of force is governed by federal case law. The case law allows officers to use deadly force if, considering the facts and circumstances presented to them at the time, and considering the officer's training and experience, they believe that a suspect is posing a deadly threat.

Individual states may establish their own laws which are more strict than federal law on police use of deadly force.

I am not aware of any state which actually has a more strict standard than the federal standard. Some law enforcement agencies have set more strict policies, but the outcome of violating those policies generally means that an officer could be fired. By changing a state law, it could send officers to prison.

California wants to change their legal standard from the “reasonable force” rule to “necessary force,” according to the Associated Press.

They define "necessary force" as force used when “there were no other reasonable alternatives to the use of deadly force.”

This initially seems close to the old standard, as they both require reasonableness. However, it does not allow for the officers to use force based on how circumstances appear to them at the time. Instead, it allows the officer to be judged in hindsight if the force was actually necessary.

For example, if a suspect pulls a pellet gun on an officer, they are not actually presenting a deadly threat. The officer would have no reasonable way to know that the gun isn't a lethal firearm, but under the new law, they could be charged if they shoot that suspect.

This law would also appear to apply if somebody pulled an unloaded gun on an officer, or drew a malfunctioning gun. In these circumstance, unbeknownst to the officer, the suspect is not actually presenting a deadly threat. If the officer reasonably responds by shooting that person, they could be criminally charged.

This is why the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled, "The 'reasonableness' of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight."

The proposed change to California law would also open the door for second-guessing officers' decisions when they are actually presented with a deadly threat. If, in hindsight, it's determined that retreating was an option, or "de-escalating" a gunfight, then an officer could be charged.

If these changes are allowed, then it would be near-impossible for an officer to use deadly force and know at that time if it's justified.

Do you think that it's possible for officers to reasonably work while knowing that any use of force will be judged in hindsight, based on factors unknown to them at the time? We'd like to hear from you. Please let us know in the comments.

Comments (203)
No. 1-200
bronx163
bronx163

Unenforceable
How is the cop going to know from 15-20 ft away?
Fuck california. Cut it off from the Union. Federalize all national guard air guard bases and retain all military bases. And let these idiot survive on their own.
Love how the navy was run out of puerto rico and locals lost 20 million in revenue from navy personnel first yr they left.

SheepDawg
SheepDawg

Put each of the representatives that want to authorize this lunacy through shoot/don't shoot scenarios where pepperballs are fired at them. Consider each welt a dead or injured LEO. Then go back and judge against this "law" to see how well they did....or how dead they are.

Mpafr012
Mpafr012

If this law passes, every LEO in California should quit and leave California. Law makers are making it harder to be a LEO.

crash972
crash972

That is so FUCKING STUPID.

weaver
weaver

No, you stop writing tickets. Hit them in the wallet, quotas are illegal.

JaDen62
JaDen62

Lordy, Lordy - and at night - how is one supposed to know. Oh - they are supposed to wait to see if they get blown away first while they try to hone in on whatever object is pointed at them. How about a law that tells people IF THEY RUN from a STOP/ SURRENDER order from the police- they are as good as dead! BECAUSE If you run - there is the presumption that you are guilty as heck !!

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

This should be federal law. Go Cali!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ProGODProUSA
ProGODProUSA

The officers might as well use their handcuffs on themselves, since they won't be able to effectively do their jobs!
I just saw a comment at another website calling this the "Barney Fife's Law"!

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

Keep doing what you're doing guys. Crap, do more............see where that gets you.

BiffCanlett
BiffCanlett

I can't imagine why an officer would be willing to work under these conditions. I love the beauty of California, but I hate the fact that law makers seem to need a proctologist to find their brains. I fear mob rule, anarchy, and a mass exodus of LEOs to other states. I'm not a lawyer, but this seems to make a LEO more vulnerable to prosecution that a regular citizen.l Hey Oregon, looking for a few good men and women ?

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

When there's a mass exodus of Leo's there is no more anarchy. Certainly , no more mob rule. In Cali the biggest unaccountable armed mob of criminals will voluntarily leave. Can we make sure they leave the country?

Hi_estComnDenomn
Hi_estComnDenomn

This will hopefully make better officers, and drum the bad ones out. Increased policing has NEVER benefited a community. Better policing has.

Tex-Mex gal
Tex-Mex gal

California better wake up. These law makers need to be voted out of office. The dead suspect was no angel. He was a criminal running because he didn't want to get caught. These law makers want to protect criminals instead of our men & women in uniform.

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

And your job is to protect the criminals in blue. Tide is starting to turn huh? Tell you what. Encourage all LEO's to keep doing what they're doing, do more of the same.

RunCop
RunCop

Analfornian liberal pukes!

RunCop
RunCop

Hey Eagleshit....go Fuck yourself !!

Jtking79
Jtking79

By far the dumbest thing on the internet. If you pull a gun on me, fake or not, I'm not going to take the time to determine the authenticity and take the chance on getting killed. If you point what I assume to be a weapon, I will assume your intent is to do me harm and I will respond as so. Stupid.

CWO4USCGCBPORETIRED
CWO4USCGCBPORETIRED

The first time I learned what the Use of Force Continuum is was back in the early 1980s while in the Coast Guard. Simply put it placed the burden on me to decide what level of force that I could use when I encountered someone one attempting to use force against me as a LEO. I was taught that in the most simplest of terms that it meant that I were to use the minimum amount of force necessary to compel compliance. If that meant I said "STOP" and you stopped that was the force necessary to compel compliance. If on the other hand, you had a gun, or what appeared to be deadly force and I ordered you to drop it and you said no and began to point it at me - well shooting you until the threat was no longer a threat is the correct, and legal response.

Moktor
Moktor

Well, when your good LEOs leave the country of Mexi-fornia and leave behind the cops that can't get jobs elsewhere I think you will find that your Socialist state to be quite a bit more dangerous than you first believed.

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

Hey RunCop. Stupid is as stupid does. Keep up the good work. Do more of the same....see what that gets ya. Feel free to run my way anytime you fucking coward

CWO4USCGCBPORETIRED
CWO4USCGCBPORETIRED

I remember reading a few years ago that some gang members, in an attempt to deceive the police tried to paint the barrel ends of their shotguns and long guns bright orange attempting to convince the police they weren't real guns. Fortunately that worked out very badly for the gang bangers! Here's the deal - I'm a retired LEO - I carry a handgun almost always. Its my judgment on the line if I decide the person opposite me is carrying a loaded gun and is trying to do harm. Its my judgment to decide if that person has the means, opportunity, ability, intent, and the willingness to inflict bodily harm to me or someone close to me. If I decide that - well I own my decision and am responsible for the actions I take...

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

Moktor. You're not dungeon master tonight? I guess the other role players will just have to suffer. There are no good LEO's. It only remains to be seen how bad each and everyone is.....I.e. to what degree. Keep up the lords work.........do more of the same

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

Keep filming the cops!

JBo
JBo

Anytime I start reading a story when the word, California, pops up...I know to stop reading, pour a drink, go sit down and hang on for the ride.

Alan Thomas
Alan Thomas

I sure am glad I do not live in California. Those are some of the stupidest lawmakers ever. They are putting restraints on officers and making it harder for them to do their jobs. If you can not tell whether a firearm is real or not, you can not take that chance and should shoot to eliminate the threat. The officer does not have time to run up, check the weapon, determine it is not real. and then proceed from there. The California lawmakers are making it easier for criminals to get away with anything and everything...

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

Thank God Cali always pulls the rest of the country in the correct direction. Always has and always will. I don't expect you to understand. That would require a bit of history, study and experience beyond the town you were born in and never left. Metaphorically, of course........maybe not.

Don carter jr
Don carter jr

All Leo in our prayers but especially now the ones on LEFT coast. Do not let this law cloud your sound judgement. Better you be judged by 12 of your peers than carried by your 6 closest friends. Even if those judges are liberal pansies.

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

No such thing as a "jury of your peers". Prosecutors get rid of all those who can judge right and wrong on their own. The ones that are left are so restricted on what they are allowed to consider that 97% of all cops that are ever put on trial get to go back to that wonderful life of unaccountable crime.

MadMadi
MadMadi

All of these political clowns making these stupid laws need to go ride along with the police (sorry officers) and then go through scenario training to see who they will react to these same circumstances. Until they do that, they should not have any authority to make these irresponsible idiotic laws and proposals. May god help us all in CA...

BobIn704
BobIn704

S once again Cali is in the lead for the fuckfest award! They minds well break off from the US and float away, they are so fucked it not even funny. I say LEO's should just walk off the job and fuck them all for 24 hours and let it be known by the thugs they will be no cops for 24 hours (the Purge sounds about right), nobody to answer our 911 calls, nobody to answer emergencies, etc., then see what they would all think about the laws...or just have the illegals put on the badge for 15 bucks an hour and be the new cops of Cali. LORDY........they are FUCKED!!!

beeChillin
beeChillin

Big Government favors criminals so much because it has so much in common with them.

Dan360
Dan360

These liberal politicians are a joke, they don't seem to be working with a full deck. For those good people of California with common sense who are tired of what nonsense these idiots say and the idiotic laws they want to pass you need to come together and vote for their opponent and instead of listening to what these politicians say, find out what they've done and who their friends are, if you find that they're just as bad then one of you will have to put your hat in the ring. God help us.

Don carter jr
Don carter jr

Liberals are like Christmas lights. They don't always work but the ones that do aren't that bright.

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

The cops are the enforcers for Big Government. Sux when the people who murder, rape and steal for begin to turn on you because the voters keep seeing what you do. Film everything the moment you see a cop!

Don carter jr
Don carter jr

Accually eagle butt Leo are already under constant surveillance with body cams. That's why most of these shootings are found justified

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

In spite of the fact that most of them are either murder or cowardice. Keep up the lords work!!!!!!!!! Do more.....help turn the tide. Maybe you'll go where you belong, eventually.

Don carter jr
Don carter jr

So go ahead get your cameras out grab some popcorn while your at it. Call up some race baiters and video everything you see. Chances are the video will exonerate any officer you record

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

In spite of the fact that they are guilty. Yep, got that right. Keep filming and the tide will keep turning. Cali leads the way!

Susan P
Susan P

If the CA legislature is stupid enough to actually pass this law, every law enforcement officer in the state should simply walk off the job. No one can determine whether a weapon is real or fake BEFORE the real weapon kills them. Passing this law would be a major declaration that POLICE OFFICER'S LIVES DO NOT MATTER, only the criminal who carries a fake gun has a life that matters.

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

Oh, I almost forgot. Keep doing what you're doing........do more.

Susan P
Susan P

You are absolutely correct. I believe most of those proposing such laws would make the WRONG decision when faced with "Shoot or Don't Shoot" training films.
It is really a shame that there is not a "common sense" test one must pass before putting their names on an election ballot.

Eaglescout
Eaglescout

This is really good popcorn.

Don carter jr
Don carter jr

Eagle scat you must think you're brave calling everyone cowards. Its easy being brave on internet hiding behind your cute little name. Truth is Leo are not the bad guy. They're the ones with nanoseconds to respond to life or death situations. We should be more grateful.

Don carter jr
Don carter jr

I prefer movie theater popcorn myself. Gotta do some chores pleasure chatting w yall

justaguy
justaguy

this is bananas

Just-My-Thoughts
Just-My-Thoughts

When a suspect pulls a weapon, they should immediately give it to the responding officers to see if it a real gun...(.by the way, a pellet gun can kill someone). Check to see that the knife isn't a rubber one, etc.,, then all go back to their respective stances and go at each other. These people who want these laws to go into effect NEED to have a mental test to be sure they are in the upper half of the class. I'm not meaning menses smart, they don't have much sense either. Best scenario is that the police look for other jobs, period. They're damned if they do or don't and will be killed in a greater proportion than they are now. This country has gone to hell. Let's build a wall around California, let the good people move elsewhere and the thugs remain to kill each other off. Only way to deal with it

SailorSoldierSWAT
SailorSoldierSWAT

Saying, "Would you mind holding that up so I can tell whether it poses a deadly threat or not?" should evoke immediate compliance even after the person has been totally noncompliant. Works perfectly for everyone! (Taurus Curve pictured)

justaguy
justaguy

your probably more of a tide pod kinda person

Betts122
Betts122

Excuse me Mr. Suspect, but could you tell me if your gun is loaded or not?

Betts122
Betts122

After reading this article and reading it again because I couldn't believe what I was reading. This is just plain BS! I guess most of us can tell where this new law is coming from! Just consider the source.

SailorSoldierSWAT
SailorSoldierSWAT

You can't fix stupid, but you can bludgeon it to death with a BB gun.

jdjr87
jdjr87

And I propose these lawmakers and anybody who thinks this "law" makes any sense go for a ride along, where they will be confronted by a combative party who may or may not be pointing a real firearm at their face. By the way, they have less than a second to decide before they are potentially killed. Then I get to Monday morning quarterback your decisions.

Seriously though, this is well beyond ridiculous. If you have a problem with law enforcement spend the first 21 years of your life without getting into any real trouble. Meanwhile spend an estimated $100,000 to get your CJ degree. If college isn't for you sign up for the U.S. Military where you must be shipped off to WAR in order to earn your needed vet status. Once you're in so much debt you can't even get a $5,000 vehicle loan or you hopefully return home after spending years in combat, take the biennial civil service test where you and on average 15,000 other hopefuls begin competing for a hand full of positions. After you've taken your exam sit back for 6 months to get your results, pray you get no less than a 95 to have Any chance in hell at getting a letter. Congrats you scored over 95, now wait several more months/years till you finally get a letter for a panel interview whom are hiring 1 position but will be interviewing no less than 5. Congrats you got hired, not quite. Time for your psych eval and physical fitness test. Did you pass your pysch eval!? Good, you're hired, not quite. Now get ready for 6 months, 40-60 hours a week of hell. That's military style boot camp called the police academy. I hope you didn't plan on paying any bills for 6 months, depending on your agency you may or may not be getting paid. On top of probably not getting a paycheck for 6 months I hope you saved up $4,000 for your tuition cost and a few thousand for your gear. Did you make it through the academy, a lot don't. Now you're finally on the job, not quite. Now you get to look forward to 3 months of field training and a year on probation. Probation's over, your a full on Police Officer.

So again, if you have a problem with law enforcement sign up and do something constructive. If not, shut up, sit down and stop breaking the Law!

Dhitter
Dhitter

This is lunacy. Requiring suspects to refrain from resisting is where we should be, not this crap.

NTPD935Ret
NTPD935Ret

Not only do you have to know it is a real gun, you have to check to see if it is loaded and do a test firing to see if it is operational. Idiots! All the cop should change jobs to be crime scene cleaners. They will have more work then they know what to do with after the scum takes over in a couple of daysafter their resignations.

CreepNDeath
CreepNDeath

All the cops should just walk off the job if this becomes law. Why risk my life for your stupidity and hindsight judgement.

NFPD103
NFPD103

This is beyond common sense they are attempting to walk back federal law standard on the use of force through state legal changes and in policy changes, it is placing law-abiding citizens and police officers at serious risk. it empowers criminals between their weak sentencing standards and this proposed law they will not be able to find competent individuals to be police officers the risk of death and serious injury are far too great.

BeccaInCA
BeccaInCA

This is totally beyond asinine!! These people are a bunch of flippin idiots - no wonder it’s becoming a shithole!!

GZanger
GZanger

What they should do is have one of these idiot law makers go on a ride along and see how fast things actually happen. The #1 thing of all LEOs is to go home after your shift. They know nothing.

Szrudy3
Szrudy3

I agree this law is beyond stupid. I do think those idiots that think this is agood idea, should have to live in the area I live in. And I don't have the resources to find a protected area. On youtube there is a video of a woman on a ride along, they tried to stop a car Watch it A Merced California policeman and a woman riding along on you tube and those idiots answer my question. If you pass this law, will you give me the money to have a good security system

Grog
Grog

How is an officer supposed to know if a gun is unloaded, or an imitation gun? This is just another example of liberal, racist, politicians protecting the ghetto rats.

Memaw187
Memaw187

Stupid law,but not unexpected from California where they embrace lawbreakers and make the police's job harder and more dangerous

fyrmedman
fyrmedman

Point anything that represents a potential threat and get shot. Liberal fools and their stupid laws. Every police officer in that community should quit if they cannot defend themselves.

cops-kid
cops-kid

we should just make it illegal for bad guys to have real guns ... simple

cops-kid
cops-kid

intelligent people that don't want to be issued additional holes in their bodies DO NOT point anything at cops !

cops-kid
cops-kid

Both my step-dad and father retired and passed in elderly years because they approached every situation as a possible violent confrontation about to happen, until being assured that there were no hostilities... they were on guard.

cops-kid
cops-kid

Rest assured, if if you even pointed a finger at either of them ... unpleasant things were going to happen (handcuffs until you could control yourself). One thing they always did was treat everyone with the same respect, no matter if someone drove a new BMW or a rotten VW, never any preferential treatment, and always with courtesy.

Marine-tanker
Marine-tanker

If you shoot a person for pointing a finger at you. You are a pussy and should turn in your badge asshole.

cops-kid
cops-kid

This can NOT be for real ... even for California. I think it might be a better idea if they just pass a law that makes it illegal for criminals to own guns, and if they point one at ANYBODY they should be in trouble too. Even if they're robbing someone they should observe basic firearms safety and treat every firearm as though it's loaded ! Oh wait !!! isn't that what the cop that shoots the bad guy pointing the gun (fake or otherwise) is doing. I can't understand how these educated idiots can eat without someone helping them.

Duder1897
Duder1897

Just nuke California and get it over with.

cops-kid
cops-kid

North Korea might take care of that for us...

Bill d
Bill d

Let the cartels have California. Let them finally reap what they always sow.

Cstuartsr
Cstuartsr

This proposed law is as stupid as the idiot that wrote it up. So in other words an officer has to ask a thug is that a real gun, is it loaded, what caliber is it! I guess they don’t care about the safety of the officers just the thugs that commit crimes and want to play like they have a real gun. California is unbelievable.

cspcapt
cspcapt

going in the wrong direction, but then it's CA

TamT
TamT

As a Conservative in CA I sure wish these idiot rouge DEMS would stop embarrassing themselves and this state!

TamT
TamT

I hope you don't enjoy eating....Just for your info. The central part of CA is CONSERVATIVE republicans. We are farmers that supply almost 75% of this nations food. Lets not demonize the whole state because the Bay Area, SAC and LA is over populated with Liberal idiots.

Neverquits
Neverquits

You draw anything down on a police officer, deadly or not,
you are committing suicide by stupidity. Plain
and simple. Police aren’t paid enough to try to second guess stupidity.

gfc1963
gfc1963

And the inmates have taken over the asylum - again! How do these poeple get elected??

rds40
rds40

They really are that stupid. They should just go on strike and let them go at each other.

Cindy55
Cindy55

Classic example of the tail wagging the dog. I am a mother in law of an officer. If it comes down to him or a felon with a gun, loaded or not, I pray he shoots first every time.
This bill is ludicrous. I will bet no one on that committee has a loved one on the Force.
God Bless those on the thin blue line.

LaneysSis
LaneysSis

OH MY GOD!

Gunnersbumpa
Gunnersbumpa

If that ever becomes law, you are going to see a mass Exodus of officers to other states. But I agree with TamT, I love in Upstate New York and we're stuck with NYC and surrounding counties. You may feed 75% of America and we supply a vast about of milk and apples, and also give Napa valley a run for the money reference grapes and wineries. Not to mention the deer and turkey hunting.

RunCop
RunCop

Put the demoRat liberal pukes through a shoot-don't-shoot scenario course and see how many times they shot the thug!

Fedup1
Fedup1

The stupid it hurts so bad

Hill411
Hill411

The Law of Unintended Circumstances...or is it? Looks like just another way for the lib loons to get members of Law Enforcement killed! The criminals get a free pass in the streets and the court system; members of Law Enforcement will die. Let the politicians and activists patrol the streets and alleys...we need a good laugh.

RPG156
RPG156

I'm curious. When are those moronic asshats in the California legislature going to enact a law that stops protecting the criminals? Are the criminals electing them or what?

iwdtsjiBL1
iwdtsjiBL1

The article states the facts and dangers of such a law change well. I suspect and hope that this bill is just a PR grandstanding gesture by anti-police California pols made to get the votes of their constituents. But then again, who would have guessed that they would have made California a sanctuary state.

gunny2000
gunny2000

If this is true, law enforcement is a thing of the past. Give California back to Mexico.

DaytenMGriffin
DaytenMGriffin

I would love to say this would be shot down immediately but then again this is California we're talking about.

K9cop37
K9cop37

Wow !!! I guess California is going to need a lot more “ GUN FREE ZONE “ signs...

bluedog_2g2
bluedog_2g2

This is total BS. There is nothing in the rule book that says an officer has to wait to be fired at, before responding to eliminate/neutralize the threat. If this law is passed, it will lead to increased police fatalities, something that anti-police legislators and city administrators seem to have no problem with. This new law may also result in veteran officers leaving their departments, which will leave a community with only less experienced officers, with no mentoring from senior officers, to deal with these potentially deadly situations.

tuact
tuact

So they want officers to ask if the gun is real of fake first?? What Crack/Meth Head/Dumb Ass came up with this BS??

citizen1
citizen1

The next great threat needs to happen to these buffoons after we take away their security details ability to respond to any threat.

magnumforc
magnumforc

Yes, the criminals and illegals and those protecting them are their electorate. The government of California is out of control and will pass whatever it takes to garner votes from the immigrant, illegal or otherwise, and welfare community.

Mr. FunkyStuff
Mr. FunkyStuff

Wow... How about not pointing anything that resembles a gun at police?... I feel like I'm in bizzro world.. Up is down... Down is up.. Good is bad... You get my point.

RCrown
RCrown

Want to see them experience

BobIn704
BobIn704

LOL - Cops will be like SEE YA...why don't they post this crazy womens address and let her get attacked etc by the thugs...then when she calls 911 they can say SORRY...we dont send cops to anyplace where someone may have a weapon! LOL

RogueBiker
RogueBiker

They already HAVE given it back to Mexico...

Rascal
Rascal

Look at the picture of the original post. Thats the answer.

GK18
GK18

I tell you what folks, I wish the state of California would removed itself from this country. What a crock of BS. So let me ask the bad guy if it’s a real gun and if he says no, I guess I just would have to believe a criminal. Wow

Dr Shoe
Dr Shoe

Liberalism Is A Serious Mental Illness!

franseaaz
franseaaz

Wouldn't it be wiser to teach kids at an early age to respect authority and never point so much as a finger at another individual? I'm so sick of these bleeding heart idiots. This guy can take total responsibility for what happened to him. My heart goes out to the cop forced to pull the trigger.

rightazz
rightazz

It would not be reasonable to ask a police officer to put them selves in harms way only to be subject to legal consequences for protecting the citizens of their community

Mannie
Mannie

What this will cause, is officers to flee the scene to protect themselves, and leave the gunman to do his work.

Hi_estComnDenomn
Hi_estComnDenomn

@Mannie
That already happens and you guys lambasted the man who did that in Florida.

Cops running away from their jobs are bitches.

Dave23
Dave23

I was a law enforcement officer for 35 years. I have never shot anyone, but have come very close on several occasions. The courts have correctly ruled repeatedly that the shooting must be viewed on what the officer knew at the time, not what was determined later.It is impossible to know in the heat of the moment whether the gun is loaded, a gun that looks real is actually not real, and it is an unreal expectation to think that a law enforcement officer is going to wait until he is absolutely positive what the object is and what the person's intentions are. The best solution to the situation is to comply with the officers instructions. It could not be simpler, do what you are told. What these people want is for the perpetrator to not be held responsible for their actions. The standard liberal view that something is always someone else's fault. There is no personal responsibility for your actions.

AuntJJ71
AuntJJ71

First, Dave23 thank you for your service, Sir! Here is an answer that will save lives all around. How about they stop making toy guns?? There really is no probative value for kids to play with them (they will survive without them) quite literally and physically and the Police will not have to worry if they need to draw down or not! OR the alternative would be that they have to be made out of a bright orange color. That being said; I agree with Dave; just do what they say! If not then I would think that you are hiding something or you want to do me harm too!! How hard is it to drop the object in your hand, take your hands out of your pockets, and put your damn hands on top of your head???!!!! If you do have a weapon tell them and say what do you want me to do?!!!! Dave23, what would you tell a CCW person to do that sates that they DO in fact have a weapon on them so they do NOT get shot at?? I am a CCW, legally.

LEO0301
LEO0301

The situation that happened in Florida is unique. I can't come up with another similar example. Mannie was talking about a possible reaction from law enforcement based on the stupidity of a proposed law. Now try to keep up, tard.

LEO0301
LEO0301

This law has nothing to do with increased policing. But it is all about the police not being able to defend themselves until it is too late. Try to keep up, tard.

LEO0301
LEO0301

So how much prison time have you done, fool?

AnonWarrior
AnonWarrior

Police do not protect the people, the supreme court has ruled that the police have no obligation to "protect and serve" and it is obvious by recent events that the police are a bigger threat to American people than ISIS. The "protect and serve" motto is just a PR device.

RETIRED-PO
RETIRED-PO

I retired after 28 years. If I was working when this law took effect I would quit to either move out of state or find another occupation. I certainly would not apply for a position in law enforcement under this law because it is clearly anti police. First I cannot believe there is a credible effort to have such a law and second I doubt such a law will withstand a ruling by the US Supreme Court.

Crescentstar69
Crescentstar69

The liberal idiots that came up with this nonsense should be required to ride with the police and stand between the officer and the suspect Until it is determined whether they are a threat or not. If you really want to stop the problem, how about teaching your constituents not to point weapons, real or not, at the police.

kenpscott
kenpscott

Well i spent most of my life wearing a badge, This is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I had a shooting in 1984 it happened so fast, it was me or him, I lived through it, he did not. If I would have stop and made an inspection of the gun to make sure it was real I would be dead. This is an example of liberal idiots, who really need to be pushed into the sea. I would laugh if all the officers walked off the job. Strap a gun on these fools and see how long they would last. So if I was a bad guy I would head over and get me a toy gun and start robbing banks.........the world has gone frigging crazy...........lol

Mikeack
Mikeack

Now that is plain bullsh!t.

Tell you what California legislators:

I will put a red button in front of each of you. If you push the button, it signifies using deadly force to stop a threat.

I will then present either a replica firearm or a real firearm (unloaded) from concealment, and bring it to bear on you and pull the trigger.

You will have the amount of time it takes me to do that to decide whether-or-not to push the red button.

Guess wrong and we will scrap your stupid proposed cop-killing law and hope you have learned not to be so damn foolish.

Seriously, what drugs are those idiots smoking down there?

AuntJJ71
AuntJJ71

That is true Gale5000; I was just thinking down the road I guess; mostly in a child with a gun situation.. I could have explained that better. I do not think that a police officer can EVER second guess her/himself in this situation. Like they all say "it is me or him". The law is bullsh*t; and has no place on the books. If I were in their shoes (police) I would likely shoot first as well. A shiny black object in a low light situation can/does look like a firearm. When I look at mine it is shiny and black in a low light room. They are not fortune tellers and they are here to "Protect and Serve" Like Dave 23 said; if they would just comply with the orders that are given these shooting would not be as prevalent!! WHY do they not just listen!!!!???? I thank all that are/former la enforcement or military for their service. Thank you

kentuckyman
kentuckyman

this has to be about the most Stupid thing I have ever Heard it means a Officer in a Dark alley that is up against a Subject that has a Gun pointed at them must try to figure out whether it is real or not and Chance their life and anyone else that the person may be threatening or endangering people who support this law being passed need to come up against a person in this situation and try to figure out if the Gun is real and let them have a gun to fight back with but not be able to protect themselves i bet they would not hesitate to protect themselves and shoot the person with the gun on them without knowing if it is real or not this law must be the thinking a a Clinton/OBAMA Democrat and no I am not a Republican I am a Democrat that has some sense and is ALL for the SECOND AMENDMENT you people in Cali have some real stupid lawmakers

RBWILLI
RBWILLI

That's absolutely false. Show me one piece of credible evidence backing up your claim.

RBWILLI
RBWILLI

Yeah, you can't. Evidence -- and logic -- shows that INCREASING police presence in crime ridden neighborhoods decreases crime. Less violence for fear of being caught and sentenced. Less gangs to be doing illegal activities, including selling drugs for a profit, which is their primary source of revenue. Less drugs to buy, which means less people in the area getting addicted. I could go on.

Hi_estComnDenomn
Hi_estComnDenomn

@LEO0301
Nah, situation is very similar. If a cop runs away from danger, they are a bitch.

Fire_and_Steel
Fire_and_Steel

It's tpo bad that the genius(es) who came up with this can't (won't) go through some drills where they have to guess which is the imitation/non-firing gun, and which one has Simunitions in it. Maybe some paint spots (and welts) on their bodies would knock some sense into them.

WRB
WRB

The folks who wrote this need to ride with the police, and once a hostage situation arises (or something similar) they will be the ones who approach the suspect and determine if his weapon is legit. They can then tell the officer if there is a threat or not. This suggestion makes as much sense as this proposed law...

LEO0301
LEO0301

I was in law enforcement, you obviously weren't. This article is about the police being able to adequately defend themselves, not increased police presence.

LEO0301
LEO0301

Provide me with a list of similar reactions by the police. I have been very critical of the sheriff and his men for their response to an active shooter in Florida. The SRO at the school failed to live up to his responsibilities.

LEO0301
LEO0301

You've done an excellent job embarrassing yourself with your comments. It's obvious you have an axe to grind with the police. What happened, did you get caught peeking into windows?

Fireside
Fireside

Leave it up to California to again prove that liberalism is a mental disorder. This is by far, the dumbest proposal I have ever seen in my 41 years on this planet. There has been a lot of stupid to come out of California, but this by far, takes the cake.

b1rd
b1rd

This statement personifies the liberal thought process. And you wonder why no one believes you were in the Navy, helped Boeing launch rockets or have a web publishing company. You are just to stupid.

Kadok
Kadok

A good way to judge what will happen to our police forces in the near future is to take a look at what has been happening in Britain, when the unlawful know they will not be shot, they become bolder, they are more likely to assault women (and men) more often, they are more likely to commit robbery, crime rates will go up, yes death by firearms may go down, but other crimes will increase dramatically. These are proven facts, anyone can look them up. The top three countries for crime, well you guessed it the United States is #1, then comes the United Kingdom and then Germany, now the united states has about 40% higher crime than either the United Kingdom and Germany, but the United States has SIX times the population of the United Kingdom and over 4 times the population of Germany, so for all of the liberals out there who think the logical thing to do, is to allow politicians to limit the force police can use when apprehending a suspected criminal, remember this politicians ARE EXEMPT FROM THE LAWS THEY ARE SEEKING TO IMPOSE ON THE CITIZENS......

SueCoop
SueCoop

Rest assured, if if you even pointed a finger at either of them ... unpleasant things were going to happen (handcuffs until you could control yourself).

CmDalton62
CmDalton62

And you people wonder why the rest of the Country think you're all nuts. It's idiotic stuff like this. Maybe you should make it illegal to point anything at an officer, that way they won't get shot for doing stupid things, like pointing objects at officers.

JCSeigel
JCSeigel

California, you bunch of morons! Officers should NOT be put in a "need to second guess myself, should I shoot? Is that gun loaded? Maybe it'll malfunction.. If I shoot I could go to jail, if I don't, I could die...hmm what to do?"
EXCUSE ME! all these officers have are seconds to react, if that! All I know is, if you are stupid enough to pull ANY weapon on Law Officers and don't drop it, expect to be shot! If you're not a person with mental disabilities and you're really gonna pull a pellet gun or a toy gun, you are asking for trouble.

LAHeat875
LAHeat875

Once again, liberal leftists, designing “law” to fit an agenda of de-policing California. California has the perfect storm. Thanks to all of the successfully passed AB-109, Prop 47, and 57, numerous laws have been de-criminalized, so called non-violent criminals have been released, and due to a recent court decision sexual predators are also eligible for early release onto the community, thanks to a liberal interpretation of Prop 57. Next is bail reform which will eliminate bail for most suspects allowing them to be cited out and be cited back, if they come back. And if this new law passes proactive policing will cease in California!

PadmeAmidawnla
PadmeAmidawnla

This law was proposed to stop people from being shot for practically fucking existing. We just want police to be held to the same standards as everyone else. We are sick and tired of you murdering people and walking away. If a dude holding a cell phone makes you "fear for your life" then not only do you have no business being a cop, but you also need to rethink your life.

SeniorCitizen
SeniorCitizen

Well stated! But you're going to receive a lot of hateful profanities directed towards you for stating this.

LEO0301
LEO0301

It's hard to determine if you're proposing doing away with the police. If that's the case, how long do you think it will take for all out anarchy? Most of you anti-police commenters really don't think things through, do you?

SheepDog1
SheepDog1

Show me a single instance where the police have shot someone for "practically fucking existing" and I'll shut up about this. Every instance of a police involved shooting I have ever seen on video, or heard described in a news release has always involved a person failing to comply with the lawful orders of police officers and/or making aggressive moves towards the officers. It does NOT matter if a person has a gun, knife, pipe, pole, cell phone, video camera, or a rock on their hand at the time, the police have to look at the actions, not the object in order to defend their own lives and the lives of innocent bystanders. Monday morning quarterbacking is not the standard which the Supreme Court uses to determine an appropriate use of deadly force. The Supreme Court has said, "“The reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight. Moreover, the calculus of
reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police
officers are often forced to make split-second judgments in
circumstances that are tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving….thus
we must avoid substituting our personal notions of proper police
procedure for the instantaneous decision of the officer at the scene.
We must never allow the theoretical, sanitized world of our
imagination to replace the dangerous and complex world that
policemen face every day”. Officers are AND SHOULD BE judged on what they perceived as the threat at the time that it happened...during a tense uncertain, and
rapidly changing dynamic situation in which they have encountered a subject who's background, motives, and intentions are unknown to them. The notion that police regularly shoot people without cause is just simply absurd.

bartman56
bartman56

Going to say it again, I say Bullshit! These are all liberals that have never faced the reality or threat of having to make the decision as to the use of deadly force. I believe that the only people that should be allowed to make this decision is the men and women that face these decisions on a daily basis. I also believe that if it is lawmakers who will ultimately make the decision to implement a lethal force law should be REQUIRED to participate in a shoot don't shoot scenario. It would be even better if the scenario is made to be a reality and the lawmaker would be shot or killed if they made the wrong decision otherwise it would just be a game to them. Now they want a law that says that an officer can't shoot if the suspect has an Imitation weapon, a BB/Pellet gun or a non-functioning weapon. Every LE Officer I know, if you pointed any type of weapon at them (they wouldn't know if it was an Imitation weapon, a BB/Pellet gun or a non-functioning weapon) would shoot you! They want to go home to their families every day. There was an attempt made by toy manufactures to identify a toy gun by placing a bright Orange tip at the end of the gun. Criminals take the Orange tip off to make it look like a real gun. Their intent is to point the gun with the intent of the person thinking it is real. That's the consequences of being stupid. And Stupid acts like that SHOULD hurt! Choot em'

markstolzoff
markstolzoff
SheepDog1
SheepDog1 said: Show me a single instance where the police have shot someone for "practically fucking existing" and I'll shut up about this. Every instance of a police involved shooting I have ever seen on video, or heard described in a news release has always involved a person failing to comply with the lawful orders of police officers and/or making aggressive moves towards the officers. It does NOT matter if a person has a gun, knife, pipe, pole, cell phone, video camera, or a rock on their hand at the time, the police have to look at the actions, not the object in order to defend their own lives and the lives of innocent bystanders. Monday morning quarterbacking is not the standard which the Supreme Court uses to determine an appropriate use of deadly force. The Supreme Court has said, "“The reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight. Moreover, the calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgments in circumstances that are tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving….thus we must avoid substituting our personal notions of proper police procedure for the instantaneous decision of the officer at the scene. We must never allow the theoretical, sanitized world of our imagination to replace the dangerous and complex world that policemen face every day”. Officers are AND SHOULD BE judged on what they perceived as the threat at the time that it happened...during a tense uncertain, and rapidly changing dynamic situation in which they have encountered a subject who's background, motives, and intentions are unknown to them. The notion that police regularly shoot people without cause is just simply absurd.
lblumenthal1-
lblumenthal1-

A police officer who sees what looks like a weapon pointing at him will not have time to figure out whether it is real, or fake. But the time he finds out it is real it will be too late. How about if anyone threatens an officer, they should expect him to take action to defend himself.

lblumenthal1-
lblumenthal1-

Of course that video does not have someone pointing a weapon at the officer, and the officer should be prosecuted for shooting that man.

Hi_estComnDenomn
Hi_estComnDenomn
SheepDog1
SheepDog1 said: Show me a single instance where the police have shot someone for "practically fucking existing" and I'll shut up about this. Every instance of a police involved shooting I have ever seen on video, or heard described in a news release has always involved a person failing to comply with the lawful orders of police officers and/or making aggressive moves towards the officers. It does NOT matter if a person has a gun, knife, pipe, pole, cell phone, video camera, or a rock on their hand at the time, the police have to look at the actions, not the object in order to defend their own lives and the lives of innocent bystanders. Monday morning quarterbacking is not the standard which the Supreme Court uses to determine an appropriate use of deadly force. The Supreme Court has said, "“The reasonableness of a particular use of force must be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene rather than with the 20/20 vision of hindsight. Moreover, the calculus of reasonableness must embody allowance for the fact that police officers are often forced to make split-second judgments in circumstances that are tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving….thus we must avoid substituting our personal notions of proper police procedure for the instantaneous decision of the officer at the scene. We must never allow the theoretical, sanitized world of our imagination to replace the dangerous and complex world that policemen face every day”. Officers are AND SHOULD BE judged on what they perceived as the threat at the time that it happened...during a tense uncertain, and rapidly changing dynamic situation in which they have encountered a subject who's background, motives, and intentions are unknown to them. The notion that police regularly shoot people without cause is just simply absurd.

@SheepDog1

scrooge1957
scrooge1957

Any person that wants to see this type of law become real is a flippin' idiot.....If you are not a police officer or LEO you have no clue what the job involves. Yes, there are dirty police/LEO's but that is a very low percentage.....Let's see all you idiots stand there and decide if a perpetrator has a real weapon pointed at you or not BEFORE you do something about it. It all boils down to a perpetrator should NOT be carrying around a fake weapon either if they and their family's and friends don't want to get shot. Pure stupidity on lawmakers parts! Let those law makers be a cop for the day and see how they react!

PowerLineman
PowerLineman

If this law passes ALL Police should go on strike!!

PowerLineman
PowerLineman

He was told to NOT reach behind his back, If i am told to NOT reach behind my back i can tell you i am not going to reach behind my back, its that simple. this has nothing to do with being free or being owned. Why not just comply & move on then reach behind your back knowing you will be shot & rightfully so. There have been plenty of times an officer does not shoot and a gun comes out.

Wing427
Wing427

That is the stupidest statement i have ever heard! You got to ask the person if it isa fake gun before you can shoot back at him! BS!

Katarina
Katarina

Criminals also paint the tips of real guns orange in order to make police hesitate. There are also guns that are designed to look like a cell phone. The only way to tell for sure in these situations is to allow the criminal to take a shot. It is completely absurd to ask any human being to hesitate in such a situation. Police take people into custody alive whenever possible. We don't pay them enough now for the jobs they do. We can't ask them to play Russian Roulette with their lives on top of everything else.

JBo
JBo

Monday morning quarterbacking will get you every time.

Ken Morgan
Ken Morgan

Let them enforce this law as written and soon all of the LEO's will leave california for fear of their lives and well being. soon california will truly be a third world hellhole even more than it is today. and the military will be needed to unfark it after that.

usmc02_07
usmc02_07

We have stricter ROE in combat zones. If you can't differentiate between a cell phone and a gun shouldn't be in law enforcement. They shot this this kid in ducking back and the coroner report stated the only front penetrating round came from when he was being shot on the ground. Weak ass argument. Hold your own accountable so you can build back public trust. When does busting a window of a car warrant a police firing squad?

TCSO7801
TCSO7801

ROE is for a known enemy. You obviously have no experience in law enforcement. For an LEO to criticize you for military ROE is as assinine as you criticizing theirs. There are mistakes made by military and LE and bad ones in both. Go back to My Lai massacre for an example.....men,women and children killed.

LEO0301
LEO0301

If someone takes up a shooting stance, pointing an object at you, while it is dark outside, please tell me you have superman like abilities and are able to differentiate what they are holding. The rules of engagement are different for LE and the military. You cannot expect the police to wait until they are shot or shot at to defend themselves.

Jack17
Jack17

I can not understand why anyone would get into law enforcement now days. I'm glad there still are people to pin on the badge. This Country has gone insane. I'll be retiring in 15 months, after 36 years in this thankless job. I wish everyone well, stay safe

mrfish19
mrfish19

So people who have never been police officers feel justified to take months to ruin an officers career over a split second decision

robocop95
robocop95

Dumbest thing I've read in years.

nitrodave08
nitrodave08

COMPLY don't DIE, LE in CA should just say fuk it and just quit. Let the chips fall where they may. As a LE, I would not go into a situation where I would have to second guess a threat. My life is too valuable to risk it where I would have to hesitate.

citizensupporter
citizensupporter

If my husband was law enforcement, I would beg him to do another job, any job! It's just more power given over to criminals.

BrennaB
BrennaB

Thank you for your service. 💙🖤. It is a very thankless profession. My husband and dad are retired law enforcement officers and my step son currently. Im retired 911 and administrative. So, i know. Its very thankless so i am thanking you now for all you do. Happy retirement!!

Poileas
Poileas

I see the coffee shop is going to be the safest place in town.

Towman217
Towman217

Let these liberals take the job 2 purposes served police force and no more idiot libs

busterman33
busterman33

Some of us law-abiding citizens, that still have brains, would like to Thank You, for your
dedicated 36 years of service. Stay safe over the next 15 months and enjoy your retirement.

Cal Ven
Cal Ven

Marine 1958: This perp was suspected of breaking car windows, then he fled, jumped over fences, and didn't heed cops call to halt. By they way, I bet you didn't know that it was a "black" cop who shot this perp.